tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post1337383889966268279..comments2024-03-17T05:07:13.710-05:00Comments on Wuthering <br>Expectations: I find empty rivers and mountains - in which I fail to comprehend the religious ideas in Ihara Saikaku and Wang WeiAmateur Reader (Tom)http://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-61341852249746400592009-12-07T17:06:06.152-06:002009-12-07T17:06:06.152-06:00Exactly--"empty rivers and mountains" to...Exactly--"empty rivers and mountains" to me, in this context, suggests something more than "rivers and mountains."Fredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10233846613173866140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-47090399367043613182009-12-07T16:49:56.603-06:002009-12-07T16:49:56.603-06:00Fred, I think I see what you mean. Without the ad...Fred, I think I see what you mean. Without the adjective, the mountains and river are just landscape.Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-57948743300566583652009-12-07T14:13:32.747-06:002009-12-07T14:13:32.747-06:00I think the significant word is "empty."...I think the significant word is "empty."<br /><br />In many religious traditions, to be "empty" means to be "receptive" or "open."<br /><br />While he is searching for "old masters," the rivers and mountains are instead receptive or open to the tao, the way things are. <br /><br />His mourning shuts him off from now by searching for the past, which is gone.Fredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10233846613173866140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-32407781815674012532008-12-05T17:45:00.000-06:002008-12-05T17:45:00.000-06:00Kenneth Rexroth recommends that the reader without...Kenneth Rexroth recommends that the reader without Japanese or Chinese read a variety of translators. I been doing this enough now to think that's right.<BR/><BR/>I have my problems with Hinton - sometimes he is happy to have a sentence or phrase not quite be actual English - but he is consistent about certain terms, which draws out specific ideas in the poems. <BR/><BR/>The pictographic elements of Chinese verse are hopeless for me, aren't they? But I'll try to remember your advice, thanks.Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-80117774468426420092008-12-05T12:44:00.000-06:002008-12-05T12:44:00.000-06:00While I'm not so versed in Asian poetry that I kno...While I'm not so versed in Asian poetry that I know all the translators, I do know that Hinton is probably the most known at the moment. The Stephen Mitchell (Rilke) of the East.<BR/><BR/>And even if you don't have much background behind your reading of Asian poetry, the basic asthetics are solid enough to create interest. As an example, the length of the lines can mirror the way in which the original characters communicate-- as conceptual units and not individual words. Meaning, don't scan the lines and then weave them into a whole, as you would Enlish verse. Instead, piece it together as maybe you would with a triptych or a series of photographs. Block it together. Maybe good to keep in mind that where poetry in the West was a mix of language and music, poetry in the east is more of a mix of language and painting.Brianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11632328198420140293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-27940483552844297562008-12-04T19:11:00.000-06:002008-12-04T19:11:00.000-06:00These are very helpful comments. Helpful in elucid...These are very helpful comments. Helpful in elucidating some difficult ideas, at least. Whether or not I actually understand them isn't anyone else's problem. Allowing contradictory ideas to coexist is not a strength of mine, but it seems to be an essential Buddhist skill.<BR/><BR/>Differentiating between the river and the mountain, I think I get that. There I see part of the challenge of this tradition - learning about the associations packed into specific words or phrases, helped or hindered by particular translators.Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-57416244637516746042008-12-04T12:56:00.000-06:002008-12-04T12:56:00.000-06:00I've got a pretty good background in both Buddhism...I've got a pretty good background in both Buddhism and the taoist/buddhist/zen poets and to add on to your interpretation of the Weng Wei poem, there is an importance of not being dependent upon texts and teachers as one moves towards enlightenment. If a practitioner relies too much upon them, it becames another snare of attachment. There's a koan says something along the lines of "Master, if I meet the Buddha along the road, what should I do?" "Kill him". Our own Buddha natures are not only sufficient, but the only path to be taken and can only be found in ourselves.<BR/><BR/>For the rivers and mountains, there is also an embodiement of taoist qualities: yin and yang, form and formlessness, existence and non-existence, etc. What is understood in the west as paradox.<BR/><BR/>I would say there is some trepidation in the speaker of the poem at being alone, but then finding peace by remembering the balance of the tao.Brianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11632328198420140293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-2543052253618915672008-12-04T09:20:00.000-06:002008-12-04T09:20:00.000-06:00I also recently read Five Women Who Loved Love and...I also recently read Five Women Who Loved Love and have read another of Saikaku's novels, The Life of an Amorous Man. <BR/><BR/>From what I know of books of the Floating World (of which Saikakui is reputedly the originator) is that they both celebrate the life of the body and the emotional excesses and dissipations that come with it, while simultaneously being earnestly aware of their imminent loss and and the need to let them go. <BR/><BR/>I think that the sense of imminent loss is what gives the bodily excesses both their beauty and their urgency, and ultimately their meaning. I think this accounts for the underlying melancholy even in the most ostensibly joyful scenes of play and pleasure.Bookphiliahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05155882653615842141noreply@blogger.com