tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post36697889988900781..comments2024-03-27T16:48:21.039-05:00Comments on Wuthering <br>Expectations: The point where the imagined fortress does not coincide with the real one - everyone likes a good prison storyAmateur Reader (Tom)http://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-50376128173394922362009-03-30T22:45:00.000-05:002009-03-30T22:45:00.000-05:00This is one of those little connections that makes...This is one of those little connections that makes a person wonder, and is a reward for reading widely in a literature. <BR/><BR/>As Levi mentioned on his <A HREF="http://ivebeenreadinglately.blogspot.com/2009/03/saturday-miscellany.html" REL="nofollow">site</A>, a run at <I>Les Miserables</I> is overdue.Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-58458151825667216532009-03-29T22:16:00.000-05:002009-03-29T22:16:00.000-05:00Dickens really is rife with prisons, though they'r...Dickens really is rife with prisons, though they're all--aside from those in <I>A Tale of Two Cities</I>--debtors' prisons. Magwitch in <I>Great Expectations</I> wasn't in for debt, but he doesn't really count because we only see him <I>outside</I> the prison.<BR/><BR/>I'm racking my brains trying to think of another Victorian author who wrote about prisons, and no one is coming to mind thus far. I think the thesis that has developed in this comment section is probably accurate, more or less: the political prisons of France made a stronger impression than the debtor's prisons of England; only Dickens, with his avowed social conscience, bothered to notice England's prison system, whereas any politically engaged French author couldn't help but take note of their system.Levi Stahlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11094919454842047688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-88412755067702416762009-02-05T16:57:00.000-06:002009-02-05T16:57:00.000-06:00The objection to the inclusion of The Red and the ...The objection to the inclusion of <I>The Red and the Black</I> is a fair point. That scene is so central to my understanding of the novel that I may be overstating its importance. <BR/><BR/>But if I were considering prisons in Russian literature, I probably would want to look at <I>Karamazov</I>.<BR/><BR/>You remind me (as did <I>ma femme</I> about a Hugo story I forgot to mention, his trip to Mont St. Michel when it was still a prison, and his disgust that this monument was used for such a purpose.Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-74554880737010156442009-02-04T09:10:00.000-06:002009-02-04T09:10:00.000-06:00Hi there,Far from me the idea to discuss the perti...Hi there,<BR/><BR/>Far from me the idea to discuss the pertinence of the general thesis, but Hugo wasn't literally obsessed with prisons, he was politically obsessed with them. His political career almost started with an exile and has then revolved around the question of punishment (capital and carceral) linked to social injustice. One of his most famous sentence pronounced <I>à l'assemblée nationale</I> was "ouvrez une école, vous fermerez une prison".<BR/><BR/>(ah and as for <I>Le Rouge et le Noir</I>, come on, Sorel is only imprisoned at the end, and it's just to stage the trial (and let him rant for some time before the execution...). You can't put this one in the "with a real prison inside" shelves, or you'll have to put <I>Les Karamazov</I> with it.)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-35754374249778371212009-02-03T22:01:00.000-06:002009-02-03T22:01:00.000-06:00All right, I've done internet-style research, and ...All right, I've done internet-style research, and that Marcus Clarke book looks fascinating. Thanks for the tip, thanks a lot.Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-76540846852919947022009-02-03T13:06:00.000-06:002009-02-03T13:06:00.000-06:00There's For the Term of His Natural Life by Marcus...There's <EM>For the Term of His Natural Life</EM> by Marcus Clarke, which I know almost nothing about. Not enough to say whether it's good. Published from 1870-1872 though, so well within your timeframe.<BR/><BR/>I will sit quietly and wait for the possible prison lit project.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-76462903705409427942009-02-02T22:59:00.000-06:002009-02-02T22:59:00.000-06:00What helpful comments.Jon Faith reminds me that Fr...What helpful comments.<BR/><BR/>Jon Faith reminds me that French literature has a long tradition not just of literature about criminals, but literature <I>by</I> criminals. Villon's 15th century <I>Testament</I> is one of the World's Greatest Poems. I'd completely forgotten about this.<BR/><BR/>C.B. makes me wonder more about the English side - did anyone write novels about transportation, to Australia or wherever? Did anyone write good ones before Thomas Keneally? It's such a rich subject. I mean, not just a mention of it, but a novel that's really <I>about</I> the subject.<BR/><BR/>Sarah mentions a point I forgot - that several of these fictional imprisoned Frenchmen are not criminals but political prisoners, which could hardly have an English euqivalent.<BR/><BR/>But <I>la maitresse</I> reminds me that the intellectual roots of the reformers and writers are actually related. That writers in different countries directed their energies at different problems is no surprise. <BR/><BR/>This is all very educational. Pencil in: prison literature project.Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-15304589504115261802009-02-02T18:08:00.000-06:002009-02-02T18:08:00.000-06:00super interesting connections you're making here. ...super interesting connections you're making here. but I think rather than seeing hugo et al as somehow responding to dumas (which is not out of the question), it makes more sense to remark that the Romantic novel in France was very interested in justice, as was the Victorian novel in England.<BR/><BR/>you should read les mis! you know, in your spare time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-2029377682725806032009-01-31T09:14:00.000-06:002009-01-31T09:14:00.000-06:00I can think of lots of prisons/convicts in Dickens...I can think of lots of prisons/convicts in Dickens. There are prison scenes in Tale of Two Cities all of them French. There's the debtor's prison in Little Dorrit. The returned convict in Great Expectations. Prison and then tranportation in Oliver Twist and David Copperfield. I think tranportation to Australia is a bigger theme in 19th British lit. <BR/><BR/>The end of Crime and Punishment is also in prison. In that case exile in Siberia. I think you're on to something here. You don't by any chance need a topic for a dissertation, do you.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06906212382849291562noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-49249181515778061332009-01-31T01:55:00.000-06:002009-01-31T01:55:00.000-06:00It is an interesting point- I do think the widespr...It is an interesting point- I do think the widespread political imprisonment in France made its way into the literature, where in English literature eg Dickens its more likely to be for debt. It's also probably a class thing. <BR/><BR/>You're right that A Tale of Two Cities has many prison scenes- you'll have to read it! It's the first Dickens novel I read, and still a favourite.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-30247260989134589262009-01-30T23:09:00.000-06:002009-01-30T23:09:00.000-06:00Such an intriguing observation, though before i fi...Such an intriguing observation, though before i finished your footnote I was thinking that Dickens has to be considered in any such discussion if only for the austere opening to Little Dorrit. I have read Les Miserables and I had never sought the overlap with Charterhouse of Parma and Scarlet and the Black: perhaps it is some Gaulic tradition from Villon to Genet. Well played, sirjon faithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04375593165985428533noreply@blogger.com