tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post4226787505688939827..comments2024-03-29T03:04:00.853-05:00Comments on Wuthering <br>Expectations: Is this book true? - John Crowley tells stories - he couldn't quite get at those secretsAmateur Reader (Tom)http://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comBlogger24125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-90823881280067500722015-06-10T15:53:45.568-05:002015-06-10T15:53:45.568-05:00Skimming, that would be interesting. You will hav...Skimming, that would be interesting. You will have read a kind of dream-version of this dream-novel.<br /><br />Simply not having the time, that I understand. The complaints about rhythm and "time tolerance" were more puzzling.Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-65961962107318614272015-06-10T15:06:54.272-05:002015-06-10T15:06:54.272-05:00I tried to make time for it, but even with advance...I tried to make time for it, but even with advance notice, May was not the month. I keep skimming through it to read posts like this one, though.Jeannehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17975028272143207826noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-53126330437671700872015-06-04T12:51:45.029-05:002015-06-04T12:51:45.029-05:00Crazy. Sounds impossible. Now that is a skilled ...Crazy. Sounds impossible. Now that is a skilled use of the tools of fiction.Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-28619998262742127032015-06-04T09:29:31.834-05:002015-06-04T09:29:31.834-05:00We might as well throw in Balzac (Le peau de chagr...We might as well throw in Balzac (Le peau de chagrin) and Leonid Andreyev (Satan's Diary) into the mix. <br /><br />Master and Margarita is my favorite 20th. Century novel because it's extremely successful in its technical implementation. To pick one from many possible examples: there are two main plot-lines: 1)The Jesus and Pilate story, which is told hyper-realistically with all the original supernatural elements removed; and 2)Woland the demon's visit to Moscow, which is told a la Gogol, filled with supernatural elements discordantly for a contemporary setting. <br /><br />At the conclusion, the Jesus and Pilate story switches to a muted supernatural mode and Woland's plot-line becomes the Master and Margarita's muted supernatural ending; both finish in a kind of limbo or bardo, half-way between Tolstoy's religious tales and Andreyev's ones.Cleanthesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15363416290397892659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-52828618111725371592015-06-04T09:10:22.477-05:002015-06-04T09:10:22.477-05:00Jean - yes. I will just mention - not that I have...Jean - yes. I will just mention - not that I have not made this clear enough - that Crowley writes with the arsenal of Modernist techniques. Helen wrote about this a bit. Some readers have had real problems with the pace or "rhythm" of the novel, but how it is so different than Faulkner of <i>One Hundred Years of Solitude</i> or <i>Pale Fire</i> escapes me.<br /><br />Plato - oh yes, the cave, exactly. The real fantasy of the novel is the idea that there are some characters who can turn around and see, however dimly, the objects casting the shadows. Or, to use Schopenhauer's terms, they can look behind the veil, beyond Representation, to get a glimpse of the Will, the Real. It turns out that behind the veil, there is another veil, and the move out of Plato's cave is not into the sun but into a somewhat better lit cave. Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-65758353312004202862015-06-04T09:02:33.775-05:002015-06-04T09:02:33.775-05:00Isn't Master and Margarita a kind of pastiche ...Isn't <i>Master and Margarita</i> a kind of pastiche novel? Gogol + Dostoevsky + Goethe and other versions of the Faust story? That's the postmodern element, I thought, the use of the old stories and texts.<br /><br />There's no satire in <i>Little, Big</i>. That's a big difference.Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-40816174653402799642015-06-04T08:40:49.843-05:002015-06-04T08:40:49.843-05:00I have read Bulgakov's Master and Margarita, b...I have read Bulgakov's Master and Margarita, but I don't see obvious connections between the two other than some magical realism. I found Bulgakov's book <i>much</i> darker with a real sensation of evil.Bellezzahttp://dolcebellezza.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-5990165685720143882015-06-04T08:39:20.378-05:002015-06-04T08:39:20.378-05:00I think it was a big book for a busy time; you can...I think it was a big book for a busy time; you can either devote a lot of time to it or you'll feel a bit lost. At least that's the case for me. I read it straight through in the first two weeks of May, or I knew I would lose momentum and become buried. That's the only problem with a read-along for me; I can't take weeks and weeks with it.<br /><br />So glad, Tom, for the opportunity to discuss this with you, Helen (a gaullimfrey) and Lory. Also, I know that Frances of Nonsuch Book has been reading it.Bellezzahttp://dolcebellezza.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-68834135004909786982015-06-04T03:51:28.824-05:002015-06-04T03:51:28.824-05:00I love this about all the sources and I like how t...I love this about all the sources and I like how they are all 'jammed together' as you say, rather like the house itself. I am reading my way slowly through your posts, they are all fascinating.<br /><br />RT above mentioned Plato and I feel a there's a bit of Plato's cave in here somewhere, but that might be misremembering. I really should get back to reading this (once I've finished devising fresh tortures for my students in their English exams).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-90822171854668794942015-06-04T01:00:58.061-05:002015-06-04T01:00:58.061-05:00Somebody gave me a copy of this years ago, but I n...Somebody gave me a copy of this years ago, but I never read it and I think I got rid of it. Now I think maybe I should read it...Jeanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14247515387599954817noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-48101400227082804822015-06-03T20:39:22.585-05:002015-06-03T20:39:22.585-05:00Crowley had been working on the book for several y...Crowley had been working on the book for several years with no idea where it was going. He says reading <i>The Conference of the Birds</i> gave him both a structure and an ending.<br /><br />I have not read Bulgakov, but I think there are some similar pastiche elements. It does not matter if every piece jammed into the novel fits smoothly together.Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-59360673598464938472015-06-03T20:36:20.476-05:002015-06-03T20:36:20.476-05:00I am pretty sure not a single one of the other par...I am pretty sure not a single one of the other participants reads Wuthering Expectations, so it would be rude for me to speculate.Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-59289432552069680032015-06-03T19:19:33.313-05:002015-06-03T19:19:33.313-05:00I know! What happened?! I thought we had at least ...I know! What happened?! I thought we had at least eight...I suspect we need a better hostess next time. :)Bellezza https://www.blogger.com/profile/18073864187188953633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-35640491975584976852015-06-03T19:18:47.311-05:002015-06-03T19:18:47.311-05:00Agreed.Agreed.Bellezza https://www.blogger.com/profile/18073864187188953633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-73897399552204394432015-06-03T17:39:35.503-05:002015-06-03T17:39:35.503-05:00Characters take the place of birds and reenact the...<i>Characters take the place of birds and reenact the medieval Persian Conference of the Birds.</i><br /><br />How remarkable that scene must be! I'm getting a big Master and Margarita vibe from this novel, perhaps unreasonably.LMRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08538873868140070018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-80062029701669057602015-06-03T13:45:51.104-05:002015-06-03T13:45:51.104-05:00Hey, I have read that Chevillard book! I fear tha...Hey, I have read that Chevillard book! I fear that if I attempt to demolish Nisard I might become him.<br /><br />I love hearing about the Minard book. Perhaps someday I will have the chance to read it.<br /><br />The <i>Little, Big</i> readalong had a surprisingly high casualty rate.Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-44590232168791244732015-06-03T13:43:40.530-05:002015-06-03T13:43:40.530-05:00Teenage opinions don't count and should be dis...Teenage opinions don't count and should be discarded. Childhood opinions, by contrast, count for a lot and should be treasured.Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-15923942308114672962015-06-03T11:45:05.701-05:002015-06-03T11:45:05.701-05:00I also felt like Little, Big was trying to "c...I also felt like Little, Big was trying to "create something original by assembling and rearranging things created by others"; that feeling, plus the presence of fairies, reminded me of another book in the same vein: So long, Luise by Celine Minard, with its mixture of Arno Schmidt's Faun, Nabokov's Lolita and Ada (even stealing the touch of a three-petaled orchid), Alice in Wonderland, Le grand Meaulnes, Kipling's Them, Oberon and Titania, Queen Mab, pixies, himantopodes with their long strap-like feet, living Sheela Na Gigs, Sade, etc. <br /><br />If some reviews of So long, Luise are to be believed, Minard's readers, just like Little, Big's readers, still share with Desire Nisard his distaste for "l'art pour l'art". <br /><br />Off topic. I'd like to ask you to please join Eric Chevillard's Benevolent Association for the Demolishing of Nisard. Its motto: "Nisard is the slime at the bottom of every fountain. Irretrievably, there has been Nisard. How can we love benches, knowing that Nisard often pressed them into service? [...] Strawberries are the less delectable for Nisard’s love of them. [...] Sharing his filthy bathwater would inspire no greater disgust". That last sentence, of course, was copied from Victor Hugo's "We feel great disgust when swimming in the same ocean he once bathed in". Cleanthesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15363416290397892659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-14995082139765188542015-06-03T11:22:53.785-05:002015-06-03T11:22:53.785-05:00Just like I find Biblical stories Truth. Perhaps t...Just like I find Biblical stories Truth. Perhaps the Truth comes from what the story represents.Bellezzahttp://dolcebellezza.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-16869847139544302892015-06-03T11:20:43.033-05:002015-06-03T11:20:43.033-05:00My problems with Alice in Wonderland probably lie ...My problems with Alice in Wonderland probably lie primarily in reading it too young. I should read it again, with much more literature behind me now that I'm not a teenager anymore. I was just annoyed with the silliness of it, unable to jump into the fantasy at all. Perhaps I'll try it again one day, for I do love the beginning of Jabberwocky.<br /><br />I would also like to reread Little, Big and take note (make a catalogue as you say) of each reference I can find. There are so many of which to take note.Bellezzahttp://dolcebellezza.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-52738836022284748672015-06-03T10:11:35.191-05:002015-06-03T10:11:35.191-05:00Yes, very tricky, especially in fiction, which in ...Yes, very tricky, especially in fiction, which in some sense is entirely false but in another can be full of truth. How can false things - stories about fairies - be true? Yet they can.Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-1623995530104563542015-06-03T10:00:22.271-05:002015-06-03T10:00:22.271-05:00Well, you have opened a can of worms with the noti...Well, you have opened a can of worms with the notion that a book (writing) is "true." I wonder what that means. Is it too simple-minded to say that the only writing worth reading must be "true" -- and that must be defined (not in a subject way but) in a universal, Platonic way? But that might just be dim-witted babbling from your neighborhood curmudgeon.R.T.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13220814349193561823noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-65517710413835314382015-06-02T22:42:26.886-05:002015-06-02T22:42:26.886-05:00So many references. I would love to see a catalog...So many references. I would love to see a catalogue. Like near the end, when the little kids are slightly freaked out by meeting, in person, the woman with the alligator purse from their jump rope song. Pretty funny. <br /><br />Do you remember your problems with <i>Alice</i>, by the way? I think that book is one of the great artistic achievements of the 19th century, and of the novel. Crowley is curiously careful to avoid <i>Alice in Wonderland</i> - too strong a book. <i>Sylvie and Bruno</i> is easier to absorb.Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-74719094781250843402015-06-02T18:00:38.633-05:002015-06-02T18:00:38.633-05:00I love how you pick apart the whole into innumerab...I love how you pick apart the whole into innumerable pieces with their own background and source. There were references to many children's books in Little, Big which thrilled me, (Alice in Wonderland is not one of them) and the scene of the children in the classroom was fabulous. Thanks for reading with me; I'll be back when not on my iPhone in the vet's office.Bellezza https://www.blogger.com/profile/18073864187188953633noreply@blogger.com