tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post4413363059953681039..comments2024-03-27T16:48:21.039-05:00Comments on Wuthering <br>Expectations: He’ll drink anything and you know it - some drinking in Appointment in Samarra, and some jazz - he was screaming with jazzAmateur Reader (Tom)http://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-10753709757445606522020-10-06T00:02:39.550-05:002020-10-06T00:02:39.550-05:00That's right. Especially in the last third or...That's right. Especially in the last third or so, the details of the move towards the crash begin to provide a lot of surprises.Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-21975914109516421502020-10-05T22:15:42.705-05:002020-10-05T22:15:42.705-05:00The drinking, the jazz, the cruelty--maybe I want ...The drinking, the jazz, the cruelty--maybe I want to read this otherwise predictable novel (?) after all!Richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01746599416342846897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-18865999621413304072020-10-03T12:16:16.161-05:002020-10-03T12:16:16.161-05:00See? This is one of the reasons I like reading wit...See? This is one of the reasons I like reading with you: you point out what I have missed...or, misinterpreted.Bellezza https://www.blogger.com/profile/18073864187188953633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-834946375202686222020-10-03T09:10:46.150-05:002020-10-03T09:10:46.150-05:00Trollope, to pick a relevant Victorian example, wo...Trollope, to pick a relevant Victorian example, would have told us about English's debt and relationship with Reilly right away, within the first couple of pages. O'Hara is a bit of a Modernist, rearranging time, delaying information, and working with a more Freudian idea of the subconscious. Or maybe he grew up on detective novels, and likes it that motives are mysteries.<br /><br />You are invited to our annual Christmas cookie party. Well, not annual <i>this</i> year, I guess. Oh well.Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-86373163012957427612020-10-03T08:04:24.408-05:002020-10-03T08:04:24.408-05:00Your reminder of him borrowing the money from Harr...Your reminder of him borrowing the money from Harry, and knowing he could never pay it back, makes complete sense as the beginning of his self-induced demise. Somehow, I didn’t see it as quite so fatal and thought he could fix it rather than crash. <br /><br />And, if we were face to face, I wouldn’t expect you to be any other than you are here. ;) I would just like the opportunity to share ideas more quickly than all this silly typing, waiting, reading, typing...<br /><br />Parties. Well, I am the kind of person who likes quiet ones. As a child of five, I invited one guest. One. And there we were, at the end of a long, long table in my parent’s dining room having a wonderful time.Bellezza https://www.blogger.com/profile/18073864187188953633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-48370011714579765042020-10-02T21:22:05.257-05:002020-10-02T21:22:05.257-05:00As I think about it, the other place I have lived ...As I think about it, the other place I have lived in the Midwest that was not like you described was Chicago. Although I did become quite adept at throwing parties. We had several quite good parties every year by the end.Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-49953943795029400602020-10-02T20:57:10.965-05:002020-10-02T20:57:10.965-05:00Yes, before the novel started. The reader does not...Yes, before the novel started. The reader does not get the explanation until 2/3s in - the accounting, the gun in the mouth - but English knew, before the novel started, that he had borrowed $300,00 from Harry Reilly, and that that money was gone and never coming back, and that there was no more money to come. So the death-drive gets to work, beginning with that thrown drink, which was not thrown at a random target.<br /><br />What's conscious and what's subconscious, that is ambiguous. But there are strong material conditions, so to speak, for that spiral.<br /><br />We are early on in the great American tradition - Updike Bellow Roth on to, say, Richard Russo, of smart men doing stupid things.<br /><br />Yes, it would be enjoyable to chat face to face, although I will warn you that, if we are discussing the book, I am exactly the same in real life.<br /><br />If you ever want to move a ways west to a Midwestern town that is not at all like what you are describing, let me know. I live in it.Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-23743395381748075772020-10-02T20:16:35.430-05:002020-10-02T20:16:35.430-05:00Well, the other things I saw discussed in this ser...Well, the other things I saw discussed in this series of posts included style, jazz, the way O’Hara digresses, comparing his work to other authors of the 30s...much of which didn’t occur to me, necessarily, except for I saw some resemblance to Fitzgerald. I’m certainly not an expert in literary analysis; I like considering the characters’ motives and personalities.<br /><br />Are you saying English’s desire to kill himself was there before he novel started? I saw it more as a result of a spiral he could not escape, initiated with his first impulsive action of throwing the drink.<br /><br />I think he’s stupid because who throws away his life like that? Who tears it apart in the space of a fortnight...a beautiful wife, a lovely home, parents who love him, a good job. I thought he was stupid to make the choices he did, even if they were to some extent subconscious.<br /><br />And yes, O’Hara abused alcohol. Clearly he knew what he was writing about when he described English’s drinking. It seemed a steep slope to me when they both slid down it unable, or unwilling, to stop themselves. <br /><br />Perhaps I should have said middle class in the Midwest, specifically. I can see lots of my town in Illinois described in the small town of Pennsylvania where the novel was set. Lots of interest in appearance, and parties, and being financially successful as if those things were what matter most.<br /><br />As usual, I find myself wishing I could talk with you face to face, instead of within the limited confines of my keyboard and your screen. You always bring to light aspects of a piece of literature I had not thought about; I hope that I was able to convey my thoughts to you. It is great fun to read together, and this book was an important piece to add to my repertoire of American literature.Bellezza https://www.blogger.com/profile/18073864187188953633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-81525895467413337162020-10-02T16:56:46.890-05:002020-10-02T16:56:46.890-05:00It has just occurred to me that each of English...It has just occurred to me that each of English's three attacks are on people who might lend him more money and postpone disaster. So he's making sure there's no chance of salvation that way.Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-22204126650095856052020-10-02T16:22:07.685-05:002020-10-02T16:22:07.685-05:00The third song mentioned by name in that passage i...The third song mentioned by name in that passage is also by Paul Whiteman. "Lady of the Evening, valuable because it has the fanciest trick ending ever put on a record," to which I say, listening to it, eh, but I would bet $3 (2020 dollars) that O'Hara is giving English his own opinion.<br /><br />Research has ruled out Ellington as the mystery Brunswick, since it is "one of the oldest" and Ellington only recorded with Brunswick in the last half of the 1920s. Then I stopped researching this narrow but all-too-interesting subject.<br /><br />As for characters, Meredith, what else did I write about? I even gave a paragraph to the amazing Lydia Faunce Browne, talk about a character.<br /><br />As for English, his impulsive behavior comes from his subconscious, and occasionally conscious, desire to kill himself before the external disaster ruins him in a week. The <i>specific</i> woman he took to his car, for example, invited a specific form of suicide.<br /><br />Why do you think English is stupid? He seemed like a pretty sharp cat to me.<br /><br />O'Hara's own slope with alcohol does not look that slippery to me, or that steep. He abused alcohol regularly and with great success for almost fifty years.<br /><br />I would not want to generalize about middle class America in the 1930s from this book. America was a big place. "Middle class" was a big place.Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-11986764121408514122020-10-02T15:53:55.594-05:002020-10-02T15:53:55.594-05:00Maybe the jazz selections listed are meant to refl...<i>Maybe the jazz selections listed are meant to reflect back on Julian's somewhat 'white bread/man' taste? If he's listening to jazz in 1930 that says one thing. If he's listening to the Hot Fives and Sevens that says something else.</i><br /><br />It would be unlikely for a white person at that time to be listening to Armstrong. We tend to project our more sophisticated tastes back onto earlier periods, but the fact is that it was mostly black people who listened to the great (black) jazz of the '20s and '30s; I don't know anything about O'Hara's taste in music, but I wouldn't be surprised if he liked Whiteman as much as his hero. Most white people did.Languagehathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13285708503881129380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-45795432511851977922020-10-02T15:29:36.289-05:002020-10-02T15:29:36.289-05:00The comments, the insight, the comparisons made by...The comments, the insight, the comparisons made by you and everyone here are absolutely rich in meaning. I read this novel early in September, being one to jump aboard a project immediately, and now some of the luster had worn off. But, I’m not sure I could ever analyze as well as you or the others. I tend to go for the whole Gestalt, and as you may remember from other conversations we’ve had, I place a lot of importance on characters.<br /><br />I was fascinated with Julian’s unplanned actions, and the course they took him on. He seemed to take no thought of the consequences, instead jumping in recklessly to whatever came into his head: throwing a drink, taking a woman out to his car at a party with his wife, in general scorning any sort of decorum (or morality). I wasn’t sure if his impulsive behavior came from youth, being only 30, or stupidity, but I tend to think the later. He lost his grip on any sort of integrity he may have had, in my opinion. Although I don’t think he started with much to begin with.<br /><br />In the foreword of my edition, there was some information on O’Hara’s life, He, too, seemed to take a slippery slope with alcohol, with several disastrous results.<br /><br />So, is O’Hara pointing to alcohol and Prohibition, or American life in the 30s more generally? I think he gave us a realistic and fascinating picture of middle class America during that time period, which in many ways has not changed from today. Except for the prices.😉Bellezza https://www.blogger.com/profile/18073864187188953633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-8311744751926246842020-10-01T21:43:22.235-05:002020-10-01T21:43:22.235-05:00The specifics of the jazz collection do invite int...The specifics of the jazz collection do invite interpretation, don't they? I would love to know what record he broke. The narrator could have told me without telling English. C'mon, spill!Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-1786160291038401392020-10-01T19:21:01.302-05:002020-10-01T19:21:01.302-05:00Maybe the jazz selections listed are meant to refl...Maybe the jazz selections listed are meant to reflect back on Julian's somewhat 'white bread/man' taste? If he's listening to jazz in 1930 that says one thing. If he's listening to the Hot Fives and Sevens that says something else.<br /><br />Alternatively, of course, maybe O'Hara just felt he couldn't mention black artists in a mainstream novel. Brunswick, I see, was the home of Fletcher Henderson, Duke Ellington, King Oliver at that point. Maybe mentioning Brunswick is as close as O'Hara feels he can get to mentioning them. Though Wikipedia says they also have Al Jolson, so who knows.reesehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15818057262934008241noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-52305961476657730702020-10-01T08:54:36.400-05:002020-10-01T08:54:36.400-05:00The line is even so good on its own, and even funn...The line is even so good on its own, and even funnier in context. How can the prelude to a suicide be comic? It is the new American mode - West, Faulkner. Maybe the idea finally soaked in from Russian literature.Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-15073940214111354512020-10-01T08:26:24.602-05:002020-10-01T08:26:24.602-05:00And you've outdone yourself in your commentary...And you've outdone yourself in your commentary and made me want to read O'Hara again.<br /><br /><i>He hated her more than anyone ever had hated anyone</i><br /><br />What a line! It's the early placement of "ever" that makes it.Languagehathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13285708503881129380noreply@blogger.com