tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post6634342664464037396..comments2024-03-27T16:48:21.039-05:00Comments on Wuthering <br>Expectations: were it even desirable to maintain a doubt - Trollope writes a murder mysteryAmateur Reader (Tom)http://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-12280767200807014122015-07-06T09:29:33.434-05:002015-07-06T09:29:33.434-05:00Yes, shocking. And Trollope does well with it.Yes, shocking. And Trollope does well with it.Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-15686207528637717692015-07-06T08:43:19.898-05:002015-07-06T08:43:19.898-05:00Phineas on trial for murder -- shocking plot twist...Phineas on trial for murder -- shocking plot twist! I am intrigued, and must move this up on the TBR list. Karen K.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13483190930383406559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-91511095842565437402015-07-02T12:25:58.511-05:002015-07-02T12:25:58.511-05:00more parodies of the plotless epiphany story - ye...<i>more parodies of the plotless epiphany story</i> - yes, good idea.Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-42822813358661833452015-07-02T11:39:43.893-05:002015-07-02T11:39:43.893-05:00"Return of the Shadow" was Gibson's ..."Return of the Shadow" was Gibson's first novel for the new paperback market, after the pulps had folded, so it was inevitably a comment on his past work. I suppose most books are comments on previous books, in one way or another. And I suppose the pulp techniques have been parodied so often that writers can't take them seriously. What we need now are more parodies of the plotless epiphany story... Doug Skinnerhttp://www.dougskinner.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-31190739340451714412015-07-02T10:56:12.102-05:002015-07-02T10:56:12.102-05:00That's funny. If you're writing a story a...That's funny. If you're writing a story about The Shadow, cut the brakelines, right?<br /><br />Lots of current pulp writing - superhero comics, that is what I am actually thinking about - has the same problem. The adult audience is fairly sophisticated about narrative strategy, but also wants to enjoy the old childhood thrills. The result is that the best new stories are often nothing but commentary on the old stories.Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-37876816250784718882015-07-02T10:18:27.326-05:002015-07-02T10:18:27.326-05:00I recently read a novel ("The Return of the S...I recently read a novel ("The Return of the Shadow," by Walter Gibson) in which a chapter actually ended with someone hanging over a cliff. I think Gibson meant it as a joke on the reader, which is another kind of withholding: how seriously does the writer take the story? Doug Skinnerhttp://www.dougskinner.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-55279017864729179642015-07-02T09:07:39.952-05:002015-07-02T09:07:39.952-05:00Yes, plotting can be thought of as a technical inf...Yes, plotting can be thought of as a technical information management problem. What to withhold and for how long. What is curious is that Trollope has consistent and understandable self-imposed rules.<br /><br />Cliffhangers are the woist. Effective but cheap.<br /><br />Christopher, I feel similarly. When I read the Barsetshire books 20 years ago I did not get very far below the surface. When I read them again in, let's say, another 20 years, I am sure I will see even more.<br /><br />It really helped to have read Fielding, Scott, and Thackeray in between.Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-23492926107845327402015-07-02T08:16:49.003-05:002015-07-02T08:16:49.003-05:00Withholding information from the reader is necessa...Withholding information from the reader is necessary; if the writer tells everything, there's no room for the reader. But, given the way I read, I'm always aware of it as a technique. Some uses I find more engaging: a puzzling detail that seems to change things piques my interest more than a cliffhanger.Doug Skinnerhttp://www.dougskinner.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-59268803643992117602015-07-02T02:11:36.566-05:002015-07-02T02:11:36.566-05:00I read the Palliser novels almost forty years ago ...I read the Palliser novels almost forty years ago and the Barsetshire novels at least thirty years ago and I remember loving them. I fear, however, that I was too young then to appreciate Trollope's subtleties, as I have learned to appreciate the nuances of Dickens with multiple re-readings (and more life experiences). I hope to return to Trollope at some time in my now retired life, where I expect to enjoy the novels I read when I was in my salad days and perhaps too inexperienced to fully appreciate them.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00014242874264804584noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-79988993384684095722015-07-01T21:43:21.465-05:002015-07-01T21:43:21.465-05:00That's right, the whiskers! Phineas Redux is ...That's right, the whiskers! <i>Phineas Redux</i> is much less concerned with Finn's whiskers, although their one appearance is spectacular. It is a rumor that Phineas has been fired upon and that the bullet passed <i>through his whiskers</i>. That is how nice his beard is, that people gossip about it.Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-23391820744066229012015-07-01T21:33:43.381-05:002015-07-01T21:33:43.381-05:00Ah, Phineas Finn, one of my favourite characters, ...Ah, Phineas Finn, one of my favourite characters, a man who can face up to adversity and calumny and still keep his whiskers presentable...Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07546287562521628467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-70950773294065807472015-07-01T14:43:33.571-05:002015-07-01T14:43:33.571-05:00"beginning to sound," very funny."<i>beginning</i> to sound," very funny.Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-78761094987084863542015-07-01T14:01:33.725-05:002015-07-01T14:01:33.725-05:00Hmmm. Now an insecure reader of crime-detective-my...Hmmm. Now an insecure reader of crime-detective-mystery fiction might say that you are beginning to sound like a snob. But I wouldn't say such a thing. Instead, as I have noted a few moments ago on my blog -- Beyond Eastrod -- I have other more serious fish to fry. <br /><br />BTW, I have always enjoyed (even if I did not always understand) your postings. Au revoir!R.T.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13220814349193561823noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-25730609894074620122015-07-01T13:58:03.377-05:002015-07-01T13:58:03.377-05:00Laughter in the Dark: "This is the whole of t...<i>Laughter in the Dark</i>: "This is the whole of the story and we might have left it at that had there not been profit and pleasure in the telling; and although there is plenty of space on a gravestone to contain, bound in moss, the abridged version of a man's life, detail is always welcome."<br /><br />I should put those last four words up as a motto. <i>Lolita</i> also tells the entire story in the first few pages, but in a such a way that most readers do not even remember that those pages exist.<br /><br />A detective writer should not use an omniscient narrator. But even the first person narrators are usually hinky. If Dr. Watson or the Continental Op were writing non-fiction, their books would not look so much like fiction (and would have less phony suspense).<br /><br /><i>Villette</i> is the great example of a Victorian novel that uses all of the suspense devices to actively mock its readers. Suckers!Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-52499173330578926972015-07-01T13:44:13.106-05:002015-07-01T13:44:13.106-05:00I am with Trollope; withholding facts from the rea...I am with Trollope; withholding facts from the reader is a trick, and a cheap one at that. What's the Nabokov where he begins--the very first sentence--with the basic plot of the story, and then explains that the art of fiction is much greater than the plot? Anyone who's ever joyfully re-read a novel knows that plot is one of the lesser elements of great fiction. <br /><br />This attitude is what keeps me from writing proper detective stories.scott g.f.baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05726743149139510832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-47400987903228341482015-07-01T09:25:29.581-05:002015-07-01T09:25:29.581-05:00Trollope's surfaces are quite pleasing.Trollope's surfaces are quite pleasing. Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-9406507988465891332015-07-01T09:17:52.223-05:002015-07-01T09:17:52.223-05:00You've been very patient with me. Even in my s...You've been very patient with me. Even in my senescent confusion -- a cloud that continues to darken around me with each passing month -- I still know enough to recognize and appreciate kindness and patience. I may no longer be "up to" Hardy and James (i.e., they require so much concentration), but I might be "up to" Trollope. Even as I consider that possibility, I know that I will not be perceptive enough to fathom whatever depths might be there. So, I will content myself with the pleasures of the surface. Again, thank you for your patience.R.T.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13220814349193561823noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-48670603290975872862015-07-01T08:57:12.459-05:002015-07-01T08:57:12.459-05:00Trollope is on the Hardy and James side of that di...Trollope is on the Hardy and James side of that divide. <br /><br />He does employ the kind of suspense that is fundamental to narrative: the suspense of <i>what happens next</i>. Trollope's omniscient narrator apparently has trouble looking forward in time. But when something does happen, the reader gets to know about it as soon as the narrator does.Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-3982439549881307482015-07-01T08:52:16.490-05:002015-07-01T08:52:16.490-05:00Hmmm. Yes, I guess I am intellectually flawed! So ...Hmmm. Yes, I guess I am intellectually flawed! So be it. But that suggests a few figurative comparisons. When I was growing up, I never understood chess but preferred instead checkers; later in life (once upon a time) my "drug" of preference was tap beer rather than fine wine; give me stories by Arthur Conan Doyle and G. K. Chesterton rather than novels by Thomas Hardy and stories by Henry James. Shame on me. Perhaps Trollope is right up my alley!R.T.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13220814349193561823noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-35691010461758382862015-07-01T08:43:18.095-05:002015-07-01T08:43:18.095-05:00Hey, that's Trollope, not me. I think it is a...Hey, that's Trollope, not me. I think it is an <i>intellectual</i> flaw. Quite different.<br /><br />What cruelty for an author to lie to the reader! What weakness for a reader to <i>want</i> an author to lie to him! I think that is close to Trollope. Suspense is an enemy of the kinds of truth available in fiction.Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-56630051519551978192015-07-01T08:37:15.025-05:002015-07-01T08:37:15.025-05:00You write: "Your desire for suspense in ficti...You write: "Your desire for suspense in fiction is a moral flaw." What a provocative statement you throw out there. I hope you will elaborate because I suddenly feel rather flawed given some of my reading interests. Egads! R.T.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13220814349193561823noreply@blogger.com