tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post4714374387564088292..comments2024-03-27T16:48:21.039-05:00Comments on Wuthering <br>Expectations: Why read the classics? Why not read them? Now there's a question! Answer that, smart guy!Amateur Reader (Tom)http://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-34413169779868631372012-03-28T22:24:17.037-05:002012-03-28T22:24:17.037-05:00Nothing wrong with settling down in the shade with...Nothing wrong with settling down in the shade with a book now and then.Doug Skinnerhttp://www.dougskinner.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-47980261253672268192012-03-28T20:12:52.044-05:002012-03-28T20:12:52.044-05:00There is always a lot of curious activity off in t...There is always a lot of curious activity off in the margins and shadows.Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-86227722144402502392012-03-28T13:22:02.291-05:002012-03-28T13:22:02.291-05:00"There are", of course. I did however, ..."There are", of course. I did however, get "Korzybski" right.Doug Skinnerhttp://www.dougskinner.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-14800961175133243722012-03-28T13:19:07.320-05:002012-03-28T13:19:07.320-05:00A few reasons for reading "non-classics"...A few reasons for reading "non-classics":<br /><br />They were written by friends (I read all the books of a writer who had appointed me his medical proxy).<br /><br />They're classics for a limited audience, specialized but rewarding (Fort, Crowley, Korzybski...).<br /><br />They're linked to other writers you like (I've been reading Benjamin DeCasseres, colleague of Don Marquis, Fort, Mencken, and others; and he's worthy company).<br /><br />You find a forgotten title by chance, and it looks interesting (odd vanity press books, for example).<br /><br />Tere are, after all, many ways and reasons to read...Doug Skinnerhttp://www.dougskinner.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-86931581575260396092012-03-28T11:00:15.709-05:002012-03-28T11:00:15.709-05:00Gee, Costello is mean. Good one!Gee, Costello is mean. Good one!Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-65184746633249051142012-03-28T10:06:35.152-05:002012-03-28T10:06:35.152-05:00Lots of that—"sometimes I wish that I could s...Lots of that—"sometimes I wish that I could stop you from talking when I hear the silly things that you say..."<br /><br />Hahaha, this is my contribution to the classics discussion, lovelynicolehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17532641082944082516noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-25635400220822980722012-03-24T18:34:58.748-05:002012-03-24T18:34:58.748-05:00Jill's Classic club is a great idea. For sure...Jill's Classic club is a great idea. For sure one reads on your idea of a classical novel will expand. In my own case, three years ago I had read no Japanese literature, now I consider five or six of their writers to be must reads for anyone. In reading Irish short stories, my list of classics is growing at a very fast rate. In reading goals, the more you read, thefurtherfrom your goals of reading what you consider classics you will be.Mel uhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08714473754458914681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-68621995832729582912012-03-24T18:11:08.994-05:002012-03-24T18:11:08.994-05:00Oh, of course! That was niggling at my memory. L...Oh, of course! That was niggling at my memory. <a href="http://ivebeenreadinglately.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">Levi Stahl</a>, who has been known to visit here, is one of the proprietors of the Invisible Library.<br /><br />Thanks for the link.Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-68930297874122224052012-03-24T18:00:14.572-05:002012-03-24T18:00:14.572-05:00You may wish to have a look at The Invisible Libra...You may wish to have a look at <a href="http://invislib.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">The Invisible Library</a>, which is just such a list.Øysteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11487028133514318640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-12692309548107765992012-03-23T09:07:06.648-05:002012-03-23T09:07:06.648-05:00Thanks - I will look up that Kelly book. Meanwhile...Thanks - I will look up that Kelly book. Meanwhile, I've thought of another companion volume: <i>The Book of Non-Existent Books</i>. I've started to compile a list of fictional books that only appear inside other fictions. It'll make for quite a library.seraillonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17654593356535433945noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-14707022806965519792012-03-23T08:42:29.574-05:002012-03-23T08:42:29.574-05:00I should unpack that joke, "over-appreciated....I should unpack that joke, "over-appreciated." It was mostly a joke. We live in the age of the novel now. <br /><br />But I do regret the decline of the audience for poetry, acknowledging that the mass audience of the 19th century was an unrepeatable historical accident. Film seems to be doing all right.Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-60867247960569838412012-03-23T08:36:35.497-05:002012-03-23T08:36:35.497-05:00Don't say a word
Don't say anything
Don...Don't say a word<br />Don't say anything<br />Don't say a word<br />I'm not even listening ("Watch Your Step")<br /><br />Elvis Costello does have advice useful to bloggers, at least.Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-4418411594848913582012-03-23T07:54:25.711-05:002012-03-23T07:54:25.711-05:00Over-appreciated how? In comparison to poetry, sh...Over-appreciated how? In comparison to poetry, short stories, non-fiction, or film or just over-appreciated in general?Richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01746599416342846897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-57856459256239968182012-03-23T01:13:49.613-05:002012-03-23T01:13:49.613-05:00I was just skimming these comments when I was stru...I was just skimming these comments when I was struck by the allusion to the views of Elvis Costello - alas, I was mistaken.<br /><br />If only...Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07546287562521628467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-15669342896738452432012-03-23T00:13:48.616-05:002012-03-23T00:13:48.616-05:00Unfairly disparaged at first and now over-apprecia...Unfairly disparaged at first and now <i>over</i>-appreciated, says I.<br /><br />I would or will stop with the Victorians, actually, which is when, near the end of the period, thanks to Henry James among others, the novel conclusively wins the argument and becomes officially accepted as at least potentially Great. It was a heck of a struggle, though.Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-85520911637349283822012-03-22T23:39:55.189-05:002012-03-22T23:39:55.189-05:00I have a copy of Cicero's Hortensius, highly r...I have a copy of Cicero's <em>Hortensius</em>, highly recommended by Augustine, that seems to be out of print. It makes one hell of a coaster, I tell you!Richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01746599416342846897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-80823978118525313202012-03-22T23:18:19.596-05:002012-03-22T23:18:19.596-05:00"Why did the status of novels increase so muc..."Why did the status of novels increase so much?" should be an interesting topic, but I'm not sure how far back in time you intend to take the argument. Are you going to compare contemporary readers' embrace of the novel as the supreme literature form to Victorian readers, who were often uneasy about it? Or are you going to compare the contempo West's love for the novel to medieval Europe's greater appreciation for poetry or ancient Greece's fondness for history? It seems to me that the simplest answer is that novels were unfairly disparaged at first and now they are appreciated. Why? Well, I'll await your post, smart guy!Richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01746599416342846897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-86807099112101387822012-03-22T20:52:17.606-05:002012-03-22T20:52:17.606-05:00It was signed 'Coetzee', but now that you ...It was signed 'Coetzee', but now that you mentioned it, it could be an alter-ego of E. Costello. The whole lecture is worth a look, from the collection <i>Stranger Shores</i>.Risehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17446964640160585194noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-47513154096342427662012-03-22T18:41:29.445-05:002012-03-22T18:41:29.445-05:00Those living lists have a strange habit of growing...Those living lists have a strange habit of growing when you think they should be shrinking.<br /><br />There's a clever book on the subject of lost books (<i>The Book of Lost Books</i>, Stuart Kelly, 2006) that is about Ovid's "Medea" and Samuel Johnson's autobiography and similar books or shadows of books that really are gone forever, where we are lucky to have even the shape, as per your fine metaphor.<br /><br />A good companion book would include your examples: <i>The Book of Nearly Lost Books</i>.Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-74627875683668014532012-03-22T17:31:45.996-05:002012-03-22T17:31:45.996-05:00I'd like a list of lost classics - and yes, &q...I'd like a list of lost classics - and yes, "the good books no one reads anymore," since as Jenny starts to point out, it's not time alone that determines what's good. I think of the nearly lost: Banffy's trilogy, censored by politics for most of the 20th century, Grossman's <i>Life and Fate</i>, barely escaping fate with its life, T.E. Lawrence's <i>Seven Pillars of Wisdom</i>, left behind on a train (or was it a truck?) and reconstructed from scratch. What of the ones that didn't make it, the ones for which we only have the shape of their existence, like the caves that held the Bamiyan buddhas?seraillonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17654593356535433945noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-29414515565688177422012-03-22T17:13:48.527-05:002012-03-22T17:13:48.527-05:00Ah! I just added Waverley to my Goodreads TBR this...Ah! I just added <i>Waverley</i> to my Goodreads TBR this morning. I will definitely read it. And thanks for the recommendation of <i>The Heart of Midlothian</i>, as well! I'll look forward to it!<br /><br /><i>*On the other hand, Tony, I will bet you that there is no actual restriction here. I predict a great deal of substitution over the next 5 years.*</i><br /><br />You're correct. The idea is to create living lists. It's assumed these lists will adapt to our exposure to literature. My list might be entirely different by the time I hit 2017. (Or it might stay the same. Who knows?) The point isn't to challenge people to read by a strict list -- but to create for ourselves a habit and a curiosity about literature that lasts more than a month or so, when a particular challenge ends. :)*ೃ༄ Jillianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14139487177036647728noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-37050793734498767272012-03-22T15:53:17.858-05:002012-03-22T15:53:17.858-05:00Calvino calls people like your husband "bless...Calvino calls people like your husband "blessed souls" but fears they "will be lost in a timeless cloud" if they do not waste enough time screwing around on the internet. <br /><br />Your husband is right about the ever-constant proportion of bad books, but the interesting question is not what happens not with the bad books but with all the good books no one reads any more. You are right that "time" is just a metaphor in that formulation.<br /><br />Calvino, or his ghost, should write another essay answering your question, Why read the non-classics? There are at least 14 answers to that question, too.<br /><br />The thing I like about Rise's Coetzeean definition is that it solves none of these problems, none of them. Rise, is that Elizabeth Costello, or is it actually Coetzee? Is there such a thing as the latter?Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-28849610339286001682012-03-22T12:48:57.670-05:002012-03-22T12:48:57.670-05:00My husband reads only "classics" (he is ...My husband reads only "classics" (he is working from Clifton Fadiman's list) because of the winnowing process Rise quotes from Coetzee. He tells me that there was just as much crud written in the 19th century, (or presumably the eighth), as there is today, and this is what we have left: time has decided for us what is good. (Not time alone, I would argue, but that's a different discussion.) So why read contemporary novels or poetry or what not? In a hundred or four hundred years, we'll know whether they're good.Jennyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00251983804060081813noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-81895223646009447512012-03-22T11:05:40.055-05:002012-03-22T11:05:40.055-05:00One good reason to write about this questionable t...One good reason to write about this questionable topic is that it attracts such illuminating comments. Thanks, everyone.<br /><br />Lists are an essential part of learning about a field, and making lists can be fun, so I understand why so many people jumped at the chance Jillian offered. I make lists all the time. But I am wary of planning out five months of reading, much less five years, so I also understand the reluctance of Tony and Caroline (and me!). Five weeks of planning maybe.<br /><br />On the other hand, Tony, I will bet you that there is no actual restriction here. I predict a great deal of substitution over the next 5 years.<br /><br />Nana, I will confuse things in my next post with different definitions of classics. Don't blame me for any of this! These are not my definitions. I am as at sea as anyone.<br /><br />So what happened with the novels? Why did the status of novels increase so much? I think I would like to save that for today or tomorrow. Brief answers to Jillian's questions: who determined it - everybody; on what credentials - none. I will complicate this soon. I know these are not the answers in the comments to your Western Canon post.<br /><br />I see that Stefanie has hinted at one part of the more complicated answer - "female sensibility," exactly. There have been some significant changes over the last several hundred years to the cultural value attributed to the female sensibility. Perhaps this had some effect on what was found culturally valuable in literature.<br /><br />I mean, the "vulgar and trivial novel" business is a joke (intentional, yes!), but funny because it gets at a truth. <br /><br />Not to steal Amanda's pleasure, but one last bit of Calvino to tie up a number of these ideas:<br /><br />"There is nothing for it but for all of us to invent our own ideal libraries of classics. I would say that such a library ought to be composed half of books we have read and that have really counted for us, and half of books we propose to read and presume will come to count - leaving a section of empty shelves for surprises and occasional discoveries."<br /><br />Maybe a little long for a Classics Club motto, but that's the spirit. <br /><br />(As for Scott: <i>Rob Roy</i> is at least Scottish. I think you would find some very interesting things in <i>The Heart of Midlothian</i>, which features one of the finest heroines in English literature, but <i>Waverley</i> is also an excellent introduction to Scott. What <i>Waverley</i> will not do is explain why it, and Scott, became so influential - that is a question of literary history. <i>Ivanhoe</i> does have Robin Hood.)Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-89549675844244890212012-03-22T10:31:48.281-05:002012-03-22T10:31:48.281-05:00A perpetually fascinating topic since there is, an...A perpetually fascinating topic since there is, and cannot be, any one definition we all agree on. And thanks for the giggle, those vulgar novels have deeply affected my female sensibility :DStefaniehttp://somanybooksblog.comnoreply@blogger.com