tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post8605211288426421251..comments2024-03-27T16:48:21.039-05:00Comments on Wuthering <br>Expectations: Conventional signs and the absolute blank - some nonsense aesthetics (guest starring Swinburne and Morgenstern)Amateur Reader (Tom)http://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-39936642772766923862013-11-20T08:38:16.982-06:002013-11-20T08:38:16.982-06:00No, I have not read the N. Baker. That is funny. ...No, I have not read the N. Baker. That is funny. Swinburne really does now feel like the <i>end</i> of a tradition, a bundle of poetic ideas taken to their logical conclusion.Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-65632602687824106342013-11-20T07:39:05.049-06:002013-11-20T07:39:05.049-06:00>> just a smidge over from the way Swinburne...>> just a smidge over from the way Swinburne often sounds in his serious – I hate to call them serious – poems.<br /><br />I admit I laughed out loud when I read this because it was so exactly what I thought of as I was reading that stanza. Swinburne is like baklava to me: I ferociously love it, even while recognizing that it's far too sweet, but after one piece I'm done with it for a year (I can't help it, I love internal rhymes, I love them, I can't help it). Have you read Nicholson Baker's The Anthologist? He makes some joke in that book about how Swinburne used up all the rhymes there were in the world, so that English language poets were forced to come up with free verse in self-defense.Jenny @ Reading the Endhttp://readingtheend.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-6611529897580821302013-11-19T08:15:35.636-06:002013-11-19T08:15:35.636-06:00Children, many children, get this instantly, the f...Children, many children, get this instantly, the fun with breaking the rules of language, or the idea that there are especially ingenious or pleasing violations of the rules. This is developmental, I suppose - the littl'uns are just getting the rules straight, likely with some confusion and friction, so what fun to be able to toss it all in the air once in a while.Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-10626233178650223572013-11-19T01:14:27.038-06:002013-11-19T01:14:27.038-06:00" But there is a side of nonsense that direct..." But there is a side of nonsense that directly addresses the possibility of meaning"<br /><br />Yes, that's just it: nonsense verse works only because there is a sense to play against. And the best nonsense seems--almost--to make a kind of sense, or maybe it does make a kind of sense; hard to say. But nonsense works with (or against, as I say) the idea of meaning, and I think that at least part of the appeal--as you probably said yesterday more clearly than I'm saying right now--is the implication that meaning is arbitrary, and that language itself is a sort of game. This is none of it coming our right. "The possibility of meaning." There is no reason--and I think we all know this--why nonsense verse is in and of itself any less meaningful than sensible verse. The words themselves, the phonemes, are arbitrary symbols. So nonsense pokes fun at the entire system of language, of signs, and probably at things deeper than language, and what's not fun about that? Clearly I should think more about this and attempt to rephrase all of this. But it's late, so you get this marginal comment instead.scott g.f.baileyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05726743149139510832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-68160809694543538382013-11-18T16:32:44.091-06:002013-11-18T16:32:44.091-06:00I enjoy the idea I read somewhere, that because of...I enjoy the idea I read somewhere, that because of his unusual education Browning did not realize how obscure his early poems are. I do not believe the idea, but I enjoy it.<br /><br />Yes, mel, I have read that, or anyone some version of it. Several versions. I can see how the memory of meeting a soggy Swinburne would stick with a kid.Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-45980880231366746742013-11-18T16:09:42.526-06:002013-11-18T16:09:42.526-06:00Have you yet read Guy de Mauoassant's account ...Have you yet read Guy de Mauoassant's account of his meeting with Swunburne- it is hilarious and is on The Public Domain Review with a new translation Mel uhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08714473754458914681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-34224061763721195852013-11-18T14:27:19.948-06:002013-11-18T14:27:19.948-06:00Before a coming glory : up and down
Runs arrowy f...Before a coming glory : up and down <br />Runs arrowy fire, while earthly forms combine <br />To throb the secret forth ; a touch divine—<br />And the scaled eyeball owns the mystic rod : <br />Visibly through this garden walketh God. <br /><br />From Sordello.Cleanthesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15363416290397892659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-59552084704062683962013-11-18T13:52:36.279-06:002013-11-18T13:52:36.279-06:00Yes, very interesting.
"Sordello" is ju...Yes, very interesting.<br /><br />"Sordello" is just the poem I was thinking of. I have not read it all, and cannot remember how far I got. I remember thinking something like "This is gibberish."Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-76709683430661070462013-11-18T13:32:38.817-06:002013-11-18T13:32:38.817-06:00Has anyone ever understood "Sordello"? ...Has anyone ever understood "Sordello"? Not I, I'm afraid.<br /><br />And for Carroll, there's the pertinent:<br /><br />"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less."<br /><br />"The question is," said Alice, "whether you CAN make words mean so many different things."<br /><br />"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all." <br /><br />As for "Sylvie and Bruno," you seem to like omnibooks, and it's one of those. An omnibook by Lewis Carroll? Sound interesting?Doug Skinnerhttp://www.dougskinner.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-11593530112943111932013-11-18T13:16:07.495-06:002013-11-18T13:16:07.495-06:00Morgenstern was a treasure. Grigson attempts a fe...Morgenstern was a treasure. Grigson attempts a few translataions and does pretty well: "The Aesthete Weasel," the tragic tale of "The Moonsheep."<br /><br />Grigson does not include Browning, perhaps because the relevant poems are too long, but I like the idea. <br /><br /><i>Sylvie and Bruno</i> - now, this is the disadvantage of owning a big Complete Carroll. Every time I have got it out to read <i>S & B</i>, I end up rereading <i>Alice</i>. I should get a separate edition. Or exert some willpower.<br /><br />I should have somehow used this but of <i>Alice</i> in this post:<br /><br />"Alice felt dreadfully puzzled. The Hatter's remark seemed to have no<br />sort of meaning in it, and yet it was certainly English."Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-82849954894260520042013-11-18T12:40:08.914-06:002013-11-18T12:40:08.914-06:00Arguably the deepest poem written in Fish Language...Arguably the deepest poem written in Fish Language (or in any other language) is Morgernsten's Night Song of the Fish:<br /><br />The original reads:<br />—<br />‿ ‿<br />— — —<br />‿ ‿ ‿ ‿<br />— — —<br />‿ ‿ ‿ ‿<br />— — —<br />‿ ‿ ‿ ‿<br />— — —<br />‿ ‿ ‿ ‿<br />— — —<br />‿ ‿<br />—<br /><br />And my poor attempt at an English translation<br />—<br />‿ ‿<br />— — —<br />‿ ‿ ‿ ‿<br />— — —<br />‿ ‿ ‿ ‿<br />— — —<br />‿ ‿ ‿ ‿<br />— — —<br />‿ ‿ ‿ ‿<br />— — —<br />‿ ‿<br />—Cleanthesshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15363416290397892659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3383938214852108244.post-60274778032593832332013-11-18T09:59:56.743-06:002013-11-18T09:59:56.743-06:00Has any other nonsense writer also written a textb...Has any other nonsense writer also written a textbook of logic? A few solutions to Carroll's logic problems:<br /><br />Babies cannot manage crocodiles.<br />No pencils of mine are sugar-plums<br />Guinea-pigs never really appreciate Beethoven.<br />My writing-desk is full of live scorpions.<br />Opium-eaters never wear white kid gloves.<br />All my dreams come true.<br /><br />My favorite of Carroll's books may be the dark horse, "Sylvie and Bruno": wild, embarrassing, surprising, a true wonderful mess of a book.<br /><br />Will Browning get a place in your nonsense pantheon? You know, a case could be made. Doug Skinnerhttp://www.dougskinner.netnoreply@blogger.com